IP professionals face real and familiar pressures: billable hours, client expectations, collaboration across competitive environments, and the challenge of finding meaning in highly specialized, often invisible work. This episode grew out of IPIC's strategic commitment to making well-being a priority, and what emerges is a frank, grounded conversation about what it actually takes to thrive.

Together, Andrew and the panellists examine how well-being shifts across a career, what it means to struggle well rather than perform happiness, and how the profession's culture, both its demands and its community, shapes the conditions for a life of meaningful work.

Key Takeaways

• Well-being is not one-size-fits-all. Understanding what “it” means for you is the only way to be "in it to win it."
• The shift from individual contributor to leader often requires finding new sources of meaning, learning to derive satisfaction from others' success rather than your own technical output.
• Creating "brave spaces" rather than safe spaces means making room for difficult conversations, not despite a commitment to well-being, but because of it.
• Struggling well is different from being happy, and the most powerful thing a team can offer someone going through something hard is not positivity, but presence.

Why This Episode Matters

Professional services environments are often places where well-being initiatives can feel like add-ons or perks masking unchanged structures and cultures.

This conversation pushes back on that, not with sweeping prescriptions, but with honest reflection from professionals who are living these questions.

About the Panellists and IPIC

IPIC is Canada's professional association for intellectual property professionals, representing lawyers, patent agents, and trademark agents nationwide. The panellists, Dominique Hussey, Jaime-Lynn Kraft, and Ryan Holland, bring perspectives spanning senior leadership, mid-career practice, and earlier-stage professional development within the IP field.

This conversation reflects IPIC's broader commitment, championed during Nathaniel Lipkus' presidency, to making well-being a defining feature of a world-class IP community.

In this episode, Andrew and Joel pick up where they left off, moving from the taxonomy of meaning at work into some of the harder questions about what happens when meaning goes unrealized, and what that costs individuals and societies alike.

Joel draws on Albert Camus, his own clinical experience with radicalized individuals, and a systematic review of over 600 studies to make a case that extremism and polarization are, at their core, meaning problems, and that understanding them as such changes how we respond.

Together, Andrew and Joel examine the MOSAIC framework Joel developed to explain how people cope when meaningful lives feel out of reach, and what leaders, organizations, and institutions can actually do to address that gap, including Joel's argument that meaningful work should be recognized as a human right.

Key Takeaways

• When people cannot realize the meanings that matter most to them, and non-extreme strategies repeatedly fail, radicalization becomes a predictable response rather than an aberration.
• Joel's concept of "existential compassion" offers a different starting point for engaging with people whose views we find troubling: genuine curiosity about what they actually want from their lives, before any attempt at debate or correction.
• The MOSAIC framework reframes coping with unfulfilled meaning as something that can be understood, supported, and redirected toward more constructive forms of change.
• Joel argues that protecting people's capacity to live meaningfully, including in their work, needs to move from an abstract aspiration to a legal and institutional commitment.

Why This Episode Matters

The polarization, disengagement, and quiet desperation showing up in workplaces and in politics are often treated as separate problems with separate solutions.

Joel's work suggests they may share a common root, and that organizations and leaders who understand that connection are better positioned to respond to it honestly, rather than just managing its symptoms.

About Our Guest

Dr. Joel Vos is a Senior Lecturer (Research) in the Doctorate in Counselling Psychology at the Metanoia Institute in London. His work sits at the intersection of meaning in life research, existential psychology, and socioeconomic history, and he brings both rigorous empirical grounding and decades of clinical practice to this conversation. His book The Economics of Meaning in Life draws on a systematic review of thousands of studies on meaning, economics, and wellbeing.

Joel approaches meaningful work from the outside in. Rather than starting with the workplace, he starts with evolutionary psychology, philosophy, and centuries of social history, and uses that vantage point to explain why the very question "what does my work mean to me?" is a uniquely modern one.

Together, Andrew and Joel examine how we moved from a world where meaning was assigned by tradition and authority to one where individuals are expected to construct it themselves, and what that shift has cost us, both personally and collectively.

Key Takeaways

• Meaning in life has seven identifiable components, including motivation, values, dignity, and a sense that your own experience matters, and all of them show up in how people relate to their work.
• Joel identifies six types of meaning people find at work, ranging from the material and hedonistic to the social, ethical, and existential, and research suggests the types we prioritize have real consequences for wellbeing.
• The expectation that work should be your primary source of meaning is relatively new. Sometimes, a job that simply funds a meaningful life outside of work is enough.
• The shift toward a meaning-oriented economy is real, but so is the risk of "meaning-washing": organizations using the language of purpose to manipulate rather than genuinely support the people who work for them.

Why This Episode Matters

We live in a moment when people are increasingly unwilling to spend their working lives on things that feel hollow, and increasingly uncertain about where to look instead. Joel's historical and philosophical lens offers something rare: not a framework for optimizing meaning at work, but a genuine reckoning with why we want it in the first place, and what gets in the way of actually having it.

About Our Guest

Dr. Joel Vos is a Senior Lecturer in Counselling Psychology at the Metanoia Institute in London. His work sits at the intersection of meaning in life research, existential psychology, and socioeconomic history, and he brings both rigorous empirical grounding and decades of clinical practice to this conversation. His book The Economics of Meaning in Life draws on a systematic review of thousands of studies on meaning, economics, and wellbeing.

Andrew has moved across a wide range of roles over his career: theatre producer, marketing professional, executive coach, organizational designer, and now Executive Director of the International Positive Psychology Association.

Together, they trace what each transformation cost, what it left behind, and what Andrew has learned about identity, suffering, and meaning that scholarship alone could not have taught him.

Key Takeaways

• Every major transition carries grief. The loss of self-efficacy that comes with stepping into a new role is real, worth acknowledging, and a signal worth paying attention to.
• Tension is information. Learning to distinguish between harmonious and dissonant tension across roles, values, and identities is a navigational skill that develops over time.
• Meaning and suffering are not opposites. Meaningful work often involves real cost, and the more useful question is how to stay inside that work without being consumed by it.
• Our core questions such as who am I and how do I bring more of that into what I'm doing, may change over the course of a lifetime, but often find their ways back in new forms.

Why This Episode Matters

Many conversations about meaningful work in this podcast have focused on how to find it, design it, or measure it. This one goes somewhere less often visited: what it actually costs to keep becoming someone new, and what remains stable underneath all the roles we play.

About Our Guest

Dr. Llewellyn E. van Zyl is a professor of positive psychology at the Optentia Research Unit, North-West University of South Africa, and Chief Solutions Architect at Psynalytics. His work sits at the intersection of artificial intelligence, employee wellbeing, and the measurement of human flourishing. He is the Program Chair of the IPPA Virtual Summit on AI and the Future of Wellbeing, taking place March 23–27, 2026.

Andrew Soren is the Founder & CEO of Eudaimonic by Design, a global network helping organizations design environments where people thrive, act with purpose, and deliver their best. He is also the Executive Director of the International Positive Psychology Association. For over 25 years, Andrew has helped leading organizations foster values-based leadership, meaningful work, and well-being at scale.

Rather than approaching meaningful work as a matter of motivation or engagement tactics, Kathy focuses on how work is designed, how standards are held, and how leaders relate to people when conditions are demanding. Her experience “on the concrete,” not just in offices, grounds the conversation in the realities many leaders face daily.

Together, Andrew and Kathy explore what it means to create meaningful work in operational environments, where the consequences of leadership decisions are immediate and visible, and where dignity and performance must coexist.

Key Takeaways

• Meaningful work is shaped less by inspiration and more by how systems are designed and sustained under pressure.
• Dignity and high standards are not competing values, they depend on one another.
• Leaders communicate meaning through everyday behaviors such as feedback, presence, and accountability, not just through vision or intent.
• Operational environments reveal how leadership choices affect people when work is physical, repetitive, and time constrained.

Why This Episode Matters

Many conversations about meaningful work focus on autonomy, purpose, or culture at a conceptual level. This episode brings the conversation into environments where work is highly structured, performance is tightly measured, and leadership is tested daily. Kathy challenges the idea that care for people requires lowering expectations and offers a grounded view of how meaning is built through systems, relationships, and consistent leadership choices. The conversation is especially relevant for leaders navigating complexity, fatigue, and pressure while still wanting to take people seriously.

About Our Guest

Kathy Miller is a senior manufacturing executive, author, and leadership advisor with more than 25 years of global experience across aerospace, automotive, and diversified industrial organizations. Over the course of her career, she has led multi-billion-dollar operations and worked across hundreds of plants worldwide, earning recognition for her work in operational excellence and culture change.

Kathy is the author of MORE Is Better: Leading Operations with Meaning, Optimism, and Relationships for Excellence, and co-author of Steel Toes and Stilettos. She holds a Master of Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, an MBA, and is an ICF-certified leadership coach.

Steve brings a rare perspective as both a leadership scholar and a practicing playwright. Rather than treating leadership as a set of competencies or frameworks, he invites us to see it as a craft, one that develops through judgment, reflection, and lived experience.

Together, Andrew and Steve examine how we come to know work not only through ideas and analysis, but through our bodies, our senses, and our relationships with others.

Key Takeaways:

• Meaningful work is not only something we think about, but something we sense and experience through our bodies and relationships.
• Organizational aesthetics offers a way to understand power, ethics, and culture beyond formal structures and rational models.
• Art and reflective practice help leaders engage with complexity rather than prematurely simplify it.
• Discernment, the ability to notice what truly matters, including what is missing or unexpected, is a critical leadership capability.

Why This Episode Matters

As organizations prioritize speed, clarity, and efficiency, many people feel increasingly disconnected from the human experience of work.

This conversation challenges the assumption that meaning can be designed or optimized through logic alone. Instead, it offers a deeper view of meaningful work rooted in craft, reflection, and the courage to stay present with uncertainty.

About Our Guest

Steve Taylor is a professor of leadership and creativity at Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI), where his research focuses on organizational aesthetics and reflective practice. He is the author of several books on leadership and organizations and an accomplished playwright whose work has been staged internationally. His scholarship and artistic practice shape the lens he brings to this conversation.

Drawing on her research into eudaimonic well-being at work, Sue introduces a behavioral view of meaningful work, one rooted in personal growth, pursuit of purpose, and positive relationships. Together, Andrew and Sue explore how these behaviors show up in real organizational settings, why context and culture matter so much, and how leaders can create environments that support reflection, courage, and sustainable well-being.

Key Takeaways

• Meaningful work is not only about well-being, but about well-doing through everyday behaviors
• Eudaimonic work shows up through personal growth, pursuit of purpose, and positive relationships
• These behaviors are partly stable but strongly shaped by work climate and leadership
• Reflection and social support are essential for sustaining meaningful work, especially during change
• Eudaimonia requires courage and discomfort, not constant positivity

Why This Episode Matters

As work becomes faster, more complex, and increasingly shaped by technology, many people struggle to find meaning in what they do. This conversation offers a grounded alternative to abstract ideas about purpose by showing how meaningful work can be built through concrete actions and supportive contexts.

About Our Guest

Sue der Kinderen is an organizational health psychologist, coach, and thought leader with over 20 years of experience at the intersection of work, health, and human potential. Originally trained as a counselling psychologist in South Africa, she later completed a PhD in Organizational Psychology at the Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam, where her research focused on eudaimonic well-being behaviors at work.

Through her platform Ncourage, Sue translates psychological science into speaking, thought leadership, and bespoke workplace interventions, with a strong emphasis on social support and peer reflection as drivers of sustainable change.

In this episode, Andrew sits down with Jenna Mikus to explore what it means to design for human flourishing. Jenna brings a rare interdisciplinary lens that bridges architecture, wellbeing science, organizational design, and philosophy. Together, they unpack the concept of eudaimonic design and what it looks like in practice, from homes and workplaces to educational and community environments.

Key Takeaways

• Meaningful work depends on the environments that surround us, including physical, organizational, and social conditions.
• Eudaimonic design blends external structure with personal agency, recognizing that flourishing emerges through interaction, not control.
• Inclusive design strengthens wellbeing for everyone by offering choice, flexibility, and dignity across diverse needs and life stages.
• Sensory experience, awe, and delight play an underappreciated role in motivation, creativity, and connection at work.
• Designing for flourishing requires interdisciplinary thinking and a willingness to sit with complexity and uncertainty.

Why This Episode Matters

As organizations rethink work, space, and culture in a post-pandemic world, this conversation offers a deeper foundation for those decisions. Rather than asking how to bring people back or drive performance, we should consider what conditions help people become their best selves.

This episode expands the meaning of meaningful work by showing how design, wellbeing, and purpose intersect in everyday environments.

About Our Guest

Jenna Mikus is a strategic advisor and researcher who brings together architectural science and wellbeing science to shape environments that support human flourishing.

She is the Managing Partner of Eudae Group, where she guides organizations in designing spaces and experiences that elevate health, belonging, creativity, and innovation. Her work draws on more than twenty years of consulting experience, a background in engineering and design, and ongoing research across Human Buildings Interaction, salutogenic design, and inclusive environments.

Jenna also serves as the Flourishing by Design Chair and holds fellowship appointments with the University of Melbourne’s Centre for Wellbeing Science and Queensland University of Technology’s Centre for Decent Work and Industry.

Resources

• Follow Jenna on LinkedIn
• Eudae Group
• Flourishing by Design (FxD) community of practice
• University of Melbourne Centre for Wellbeing Science
• Queensland University of Technology Centre for Decent Work and Industry

Together, they explore why burnout often signals a deeper business issue, how time becomes the most undervalued resource in the workplace, and what it looks like to create systems that support real people rather than extract from them.

Bree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun, with a career spent guiding leaders at companies like Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and Memorial Sloan Kettering through complex change.

Key Takeaways

Human happiness is not a business case. Bree argues that engagement is simply human happiness in corporate language, and she invites leaders to value the finite days people give to work rather than justify them through productivity gains.

Burnout has structural roots. Chronic overwork often reveals a broken business model. When the math no longer works, leaders must rethink priorities, resources, and expectations instead of placing the burden on individual resilience.

Practical systems make work more human. Bree shares several tools that help teams reset and reconnect, including protected “golden time,” deep work blocks, and open narration when the workload is unusually heavy. These small practices build trust and reduce isolation.

Fun and hard work can coexist. The goal is not to avoid effort but to create an environment where people can show up fully and work hard without sacrificing well-being or dignity. Joy, collaboration, and emotional steadiness help teams move through demanding moments together.

Why This Episode Matters

Meaningful work requires leaders who understand that every workday is a real day in someone’s life, and that structure, pacing, and expectations shape whether people thrive or slowly burn out. Bree’s insights offer a blueprint for designing team environments that honor time, reduce unnecessary suffering, and rebuild the human connections that make work sustainable.

These ideas have clear implications for anyone responsible for people, culture, or performance.

About Our Guest

Bree Groff is a workplace culture expert and author of Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously). She advises senior leaders on transformation, culture, and organizational change, informed by her work with Microsoft, Google, Pfizer, and Memorial Sloan Kettering. Bree’s career includes serving as CEO of NOBL Collective and working as a Senior Advisor at SYPartners. Her approach to work centers on humanity, practical design, and the belief that our days are precious and worth spending well, which sits at the heart of this conversation.

Resources

• Bree’s website: https://www.breegroff.com
• Today Was Fun: A Book About Work (Seriously)

The trio discuss moral distress, moral injury, and the heavy emotional load that comes with caring for people inside profit-driven institutions.

Laura and Anu describe how their work at Introspective Spaces creates room for vulnerability across hierarchy, rebuilds trust among clinicians, and strengthens the capacity to show up with presence.

Key Takeaways

• Moral injury affects many people in healthcare: Systemic constraints, understaffing, and inequities create powerlessness, isolation, and grief that clinicians often carry alone.
• Community care restores agency: Gathering across roles allows clinicians to see each other’s humanity and rebuild connection, trust, and collective strength.
• Creativity and spirituality support sustainability: Practices like the Artist’s Way help clinicians return to their values, slow down, and show up with integrity.
• Mutuality improves patient care: When clinicians tend to their own well-being, patient outcomes improve and the work becomes more sustainable.

Why This Episode Matters

Meaningful work requires environments where people feel connected, valued, and aligned with their purpose. This episode shows how collective care, shared reflection, and creative practice support real change. The conversation offers leaders and teams a model for building workplaces where humanity and healing can thrive.

About Our Guests

Laura Holford, RN MSN is an oncology certified nurse and public health nurse in Sacramento, California. She focuses on reducing nursing burnout and moral distress and works to rebuild accountability in healthcare. Laura draws on liberation theology and her background as a campus minister and lay community pastor. She helps people develop reflective and spiritual practices that support meaningful work and clear action.

Anu Gorukanti, MD is a pediatric hospitalist and public health advocate at a county hospital in Los Angeles. Her work centers on health equity, racial justice, and the role of contemplation in social change. Anu believes that clarity about personal values creates space for a more authentic life and more compassionate systems.

Resources to Learn More

• Introspective Spaces
• The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron
• Emergent Strategy by adrienne maree brown
• The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker
• The Wounded Healer by Henri Nouwen

Kevin and Andrew discuss how the culture of busyness and the commodification of well-being have left many people feeling unmoored, and why rediscovering our shared humanity might be the most important work of all.

Kevin Aho is Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department of Communication and Philosophy at Florida Gulf Coast University. His work explores existentialism, phenomenology, and the philosophy of health and illness.

Key Takeaways

• Meaning has become a metric. When education and work are reduced to measurable outputs, we lose sight of their deeper purpose: to help people grow, think critically, and engage with one another as human beings.
• The wellness industry reflects a deeper emptiness. The rise of “self-care” culture often masks structural problems, placing responsibility for well-being entirely on individuals instead of addressing the social conditions that shape health and belonging.
• The self is not a solo project. Kevin challenges the notion of a separate, autonomous self, suggesting that meaning and identity only exist through relationships with others.
• Community is the antidote to alienation. Small acts of connection, through art, education, or shared spaces, can help rebuild the collective life that neoliberal culture erodes.

Why This Episode Matters

In a time when organizations are driven by efficiency and individuals feel pressured to optimize every part of life, this conversation reminds us that meaning cannot be measured or achieved alone.

For leaders and changemakers, Kevin’s ideas offer a call to design systems and workplaces that honor interdependence, nurture reflection, and restore our sense of community and care.

About Our Guest

Kevin Aho is Professor of Philosophy and Chair of the Department of Communication and Philosophy at Florida Gulf Coast University. His research spans existentialism, phenomenology, hermeneutics, and the philosophy of health and illness. Through his books, Kevin explores what it means to live well, face suffering, and find meaning in our finite lives. His forthcoming work, A Phenomenology of Functional Neurological Disorder, continues this inquiry into how illness and vulnerability reveal what it truly means to be human.

In this episode, Andrew Soren sits down with Marcel Meyer, professor at the School of Economics and Business at the University of Navarra, to explore how virtue ethics can help us navigate modern leadership and organizational life.

Drawing from Aristotle’s concept of eudaimonia (human flourishing), Marcel shares how cultivating character, wisdom, and purpose allows leaders to create workplaces where people thrive individually and collectively.

Key Takeaways

• Virtue is developed through action and reflection. Ethical character isn’t innate, but built through everyday choices, habits, and feedback that shape who we become at work and in life.
• Flourishing happens in community. Meaningful work and ethical growth depend on relationships and shared responsibility, not isolation.
• Leadership is a form of rhetoric. Effective leaders inspire through pathos (empathy), logos (reason), and ethos (character), which aligns emotion, logic, and integrity to create trust and shared purpose.
• Hope and optimism can be cultivated. Drawing from Positive Organizational Scholarship, Marcel outlines how leaders can foster environments that generate positive cycles of emotion, action, and growth.

Why This Episode Matters

Aristotle may not have written about modern workplaces, but his philosophy offers a timeless framework for understanding what makes work meaningful. Marcel’s perspective bridges ancient wisdom with organizational science, offering leaders practical ways to ground their teams in purpose, integrity, and human connection. This episode is for anyone curious about how moral character and practical wisdom can shape organizations that truly enable people to flourish.

About Our Guest

Marcel Meyer is a professor at the School of Economics and Business at the University of Navarra, specializing in ethical leadership, organizational behavior, and Aristotelian virtue ethics. His research examines how leadership grounded in virtue and purpose fosters human flourishing within organizations. Marcel’s work integrates philosophy with management practice, spanning topics from executive communication on sustainability to the cultivation of practical wisdom in leaders. A former corporate trainer for companies like Volkswagen and Liebherr, he brings both academic and applied expertise to his study of virtue in business.

In their conversation, Andrew and Bev explore why growth is more than climbing the ladder, how everyday conversations shape engagement, and what it means to lead with an “opportunity minded” approach.

Key Takeaways

• Noticing creates mattering. Saying out loud what you see in someone is the simplest way to show they matter.
• Growth is not just up. Careers can be kaleidoscopes, shifting through lateral moves and fresh perspectives.
• Conversations are retention tools. Stay interviews and everyday check-ins build trust and engagement.
• Opportunity mindset matters. Leaders and employees can either be opportunity minded or opportunity blinded.

Why This Episode Matters

Meaningful work isn’t only about the tasks we do, but how others see us and help us grow. Bev’s lifetime of work shows that noticing, mattering, and honest conversations are the foundation of engagement and retention.

About Our Guest

Dr. Beverly Kaye is recognized internationally as one of the most knowledgeable voices on career development, employee engagement, and retention. Her books have become classics for managers and organizations worldwide, offering simple, practical tools for growth and retention that stand the test of time.

In the blog, we expand on Kaye’s ideas with more context and examples, including her concept of kaleidoscope careers. Read more here: https://www.eudaimonicbydesign.com/resilience/bev-kaye

Over the past two years, we’ve spoken with more than 50 researchers, thinkers, and practitioners who are reimagining what makes work meaningful.

To mark this moment, we are doing something different. Instead of an interview, Andrew shares his own reflections, based on an article co-written with his mentor and friend, Dr. Carol Ryff. Together, they explore what it means to see work not only as a driver of productivity or advantage but also as a moral commitment and a way of reclaiming the communal soul of work.

This special solo episode invites you to pause, reflect, and imagine how workplaces can become modern-day polis: moral communities designed for human flourishing.

Key Takeaways

• Andrew reflects on what it would mean to treat organizations as moral communities, drawing inspiration from Aristotle’s polis.
• He explores the tension between individual wellbeing and collective flourishing, and why both matter for the future of work.
• The episode touches on what makes “decent work” a foundation for human thriving, and why organizations cannot ignore it.
• Andrew shares why the business case for wellbeing is not enough, and what it takes to move beyond metrics into moral purpose.
• Finally, he considers how the arts and the stories we tell can help us reclaim the deeper soul of work.

Why This Episode Matters

This conversation is an invitation for reflection, dialogue, and action. For a deeper dive into the themes Andrew shares in this episode, visit our companion blog.

If you have been part of our journey so far, thank you. If you are new, this is a perfect time to start listening. And if something resonates, we would love for you to share it with a friend or colleague and let us know what ideas or stories it sparks for you.

In this episode, Andrew sits down with Jennifer Tosti-Kharas and Christopher Wong Michaelson, co-authors of Is Your Work Worth It? and The Meaning and Purpose of Work. Jennifer is a psychologist and Christopher is a philosopher, and together they bring complementary perspectives to one of the most important questions of our time: how do we define meaningful work, and what are the risks and responsibilities that come with it?

Their dialogue touches on everything from the double-edged sword of calling, to the ethical obligations of organizations, to what AI and automation might mean for the future of work.

Key Takeaways

• Meaningful work is both personal and ethical. It is about how work feels to us, and whether it contributes to the greater good.
• Calling can be inspiring but also harmful. Leaders must recognize both the promise and the risks.
• Organizations have real responsibility. Beyond mission statements, they must design jobs and cultures that allow people to thrive.
• The future of work will test us. From “bullshit jobs” to AI, leaders and employees alike must wrestle with what work should be, not just what it is.

Why This Episode Matters

Conversations about meaningful work often stop at the individual level, but this episode pushes us to think bigger. Leaders and organizations hold real power in shaping whether work supports or undermines human flourishing.

At a time when burnout is widespread, purpose is marketed as a recruitment tool, and technology is reshaping jobs, Jennifer and Christopher remind us that meaning is a collective responsibility. For organizations, this means creating conditions where people can thrive without being exploited. For leaders, it means asking not only whether your work feels meaningful, but also whether it contributes to a greater good.

About Our Guests

Jennifer Tosti-Kharas is the Camilla Latino Spinelli Endowed Term Chair and Professor of Management at Babson College. She researches and teaches about what it means to craft a meaningful career and the risks and rewards of work as a calling.

Christopher Wong Michaelson is the Barbara and David A. Koch Endowed Chair in Business Ethics and Academic Director of the Melrose and The Toro Company Center for Principled Leadership at the University of St. Thomas. He also teaches at NYU’s Stern School of Business. A philosopher with decades of experience advising business leaders, Christopher writes and teaches on meaning, purpose, and the ethical responsibilities of work.

In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Llewellyn van Zyl, a positive organizational psychologist and data scientist who is rethinking how we measure and design for human flourishing.

Llewellyn shares why traditional “top-down” models of well-being often fall short, and introduces a bottom-up, person-centered approach that treats every individual as a unique case. From there, he explains how artificial intelligence and machine learning might help scale these insights, and where we need to be cautious about over-reliance and ethical risks.

Key Takeaways

• Top-down models have limits. Frameworks like PERMA can’t fully capture cultural differences or personal experiences, and often prescribe “averages” that don’t work for everyone.
• Bottom-up approaches start with the person. Llewellyn outlined eight principles for understanding well-being as a dynamic, context-dependent process that unfolds uniquely for each individual.
• AI offers possibilities and pitfalls. Machine learning can help identify unique drivers of well-being and burnout at the individual level, but it also raises concerns around ethics, dependence, and the dehumanization of care.
• The future of work will require balance. Technology should augment human wisdom, freeing us to focus on the creativity, ethics, and relationships that machines cannot replicate.

Why This Episode Matters

As organizations grapple with the well-being of their employees, this conversation offers both a critique of the “one-size-fits-all” approach and a vision for what’s possible when data, AI, and human-centered design come together. It challenges us to think carefully about how we measure what matters, and how to ensure technology supports, rather than replaces, what makes work meaningful.

Llewellyn also shares concrete practices and stories, such as why “connection to nature” isn’t universal and how AI can identify signs of burnout in unexpected ways.

You can explore these ideas further in our blog here: eudaimonicbydesign.com/resilience/llewellyn-van-zyl

About Our Guest

Prof. Llewellyn E. van Zyl, PhD, is an award-winning positive organizational psychologist and data scientist. He is a professor at the Optentia Research Unit at North-West University and Chief Solutions Architect at Psynalytics, where he pioneers person-centered, idiographic approaches to employee well-being through advanced analytics and AI. With more than 15 years of consulting experience and over 100 scientific publications, his work is reshaping how organizations understand and support the employee experience.

From understanding your own positionality to deeply listening to others, Lesley-Ann shares how embracing both joy and anger can fuel social transformation. She also introduces the “abolitionist mindset,” a way of identifying when systems are too harmful to improve incrementally and must be dismantled entirely.

Key Takeaways

• Know yourself to create change. Self-awareness is the foundation of meaningful design work. Understanding your values, biases, and lived experiences shapes the questions you ask and the solutions you imagine.
• Listen beyond empathy. True change requires more than understanding another’s feelings. It calls for co-creation, proximity to the people affected, and attention to the unspoken cues that reveal deeper needs.
• Adopt the abolitionist mindset when needed. Not all systems can be fixed gradually. Recognizing when something must end entirely can be a catalyst for lasting, equitable change.
• Balance anger with joy. Anger can be a powerful motivator for action, while joy sustains the energy required to keep going in the face of long-term challenges.

Why This Episode Matters

Whether you lead a team, manage a project, or simply want to make a difference in your community, Lesley-Ann’s approach to design offers a practical and hopeful roadmap.

By combining critical reflection with bold action, she invites us to see ourselves as active participants in shaping a more just and joyful future.

About Our Guest

Lesley-Ann Noel is a Trinidadian design educator and Dean of Design at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. She is the author of Design Social Change and co-editor of The Black Experience in Design. Her work includes the creation of critical reflection tools such as The Designer’s Critical Alphabet and the Positionality Wheel. Before joining OCAD U, she taught at North Carolina State University, Tulane University, Stanford University, and the University of the West Indies.

Together, they explore what Albæk calls the “greatest paradox of our time”: while many metrics of progress are improving globally, our existential well-being is declining. Why is that? And what would it take to reverse the trend?

Key Takeaways

• We don’t suffer from a lack of progress, but a lack of pause. Despite global gains in wealth and health, many people report feeling more lonely, stressed, and disengaged than ever. Albæk argues that speed has become a modern god, and without reflection, we mistake noise for the melody of life.
• Work is not separate from life, but rather, it is life. Albæk calls the idea of “work-life balance” not just misguided but dangerous. Instead, we should strive for what he terms “the perfect imbalance” - an honest acceptance that different roles and contexts in life will always pull us in different directions.
• Satisfaction and happiness aren’t enough. Albæk distinguishes meaning from other positive emotions: “Meaning is the only emotion that can coexist with dissatisfaction and unhappiness.” That’s what makes it essential to a dignified life.
• Virtues over values. Albæk challenges the business world’s obsession with corporate “values,” arguing that virtues are moral aspirations we strive toward, not claims we declare.

Why This Episode Matters

This conversation invites us to challenge deeply held assumptions about work, life, progress, and productivity. By dismantling the myth of work-life balance and redefining how we measure success, Albæk helps leaders and individuals alike reimagine work as a key site of meaning rather than its opposite.

About Our Guest

Morten Albæk is a Danish philosopher, author, and founder of Voluntās, the world’s first advisory firm to systematically measure and consult on meaning.

He previously served as a senior executive at Danske Bank and Vestas, where he developed global initiatives like WindMade and Wind for Prosperity.

Albæk is the author of several best-selling books, and has been named one of the “100 Most Influential CMOs in the World” and one of Fast Company’s “1,000 Most Creative People in Business.”

In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Terrance L. (T. L.) Boyd, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Management and Leadership at Texas Christian University.

T.L. brings both personal insight and academic rigor to a conversation about non-traditional caregiving. His research explores how responsibilities outside of work, often overlooked or undervalued, can shape the way people lead, connect, and grow. As a scholar deeply committed to representation and equity, T.L. centers the lived experiences of historically marginalized communities in his work and teaching.

This conversation is a reminder that people’s lives outside of work often influence their impact inside the workplace. Recognizing that reality opens up new ways to support, include, and empower each other.

Key Takeaways

Caregiving is part of professional life: T.L. explains that caregiving responsibilities, especially those outside of traditional roles, often strengthen qualities like empathy, flexibility, and resilience.

We need to broaden the definition of caregiving: Workplace systems are usually built with only traditional caregivers in mind. People caring for parents, siblings, or chosen family are often left out of policies and support.

Caregiving can lead to growth, not just strain: While it comes with challenges, caregiving can also develop skills that are powerfully applicable in the workplace. These experiences can build the kind of character and emotional intelligence that is otherwise hard to develop on the job.

Leaders set the tone: Managers act as “climate engineers.” The way they respond to caregiving disclosures shapes whether people feel safe sharing their realities or choose to stay silent.

Why This Episode Matters

This episode encourages us to see caregiving as part of what makes people effective and human at work. It invites leaders to move past assumptions and to notice the invisible responsibilities their people may be carrying. By doing so, they can build more inclusive and supportive workplaces.

About Our Guest

Terrance L. (T. L.) Boyd, Ph.D. is an Assistant Professor of Management and Leadership at Texas Christian University’s Neeley School of Business. A firm believer that representation matters, his research explores how historically marginalized communities show up in dyadic and group interactions, with a particular focus on emotion and cognition in the workplace.

Prior to entering academia, he served as the inaugural director of the Honors College Path Program at the University of Arkansas, a mentoring initiative designed to increase diversity in honors education and graduation. His scholarship seeks to create knowledge that reflects the nuanced realities of those often excluded from mainstream research.

T.L. is a co-author of the paper “Out of the Shadows: Bringing Nontraditional Caregiving to the Foreground of Management Research,” which can be found here.

Connect with him on LinkedIn and visit the companion blog on our website for deeper insights from this episode.

In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Dr. Alan Waterman, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at The College of New Jersey and one of the earliest psychologists to empirically distinguish eudaimonia from hedonia.

Al shares how a life grounded in self-realization, rather than external rewards or fleeting happiness, can guide our career choices, work orientations, and even our understanding of motivation. Drawing on decades of research and philosophical inquiry, he challenges common assumptions about flow, passion, and the role of virtue in modern work.

This conversation explores the connection between identity, calling, and personal fulfillment — and the very real trade-offs people face when trying to design lives (and workplaces) that support eudaimonic well-being.

Key Takeaways

• Work as a calling vs. work as a job: Al emphasizes that meaningful work often emerges from a sense of intrinsic motivation and resonance, not just external outcomes.
• Self-realization is the heart of eudaimonia: Rather than pursuing success by others’ standards, individuals thrive when they develop their own unique strengths, values, and potential.
• Harmonious vs. obsessive passion: Passion isn’t always productive. When intrinsic motivation becomes rigid or consuming, it can lead to burnout instead of fulfillment.
• Employers should support eudaimonia outside of work: Managers have a role in fostering self-awareness, autonomy, and life satisfaction by supporting employees’ growth in and beyond the workplace.

Why This Episode Matters

This episode is a reminder that meaningful work is not one-size-fits-all. Whether you’re navigating a mid-career shift, helping others find their strengths, or designing environments that support well-being, this conversation invites reflection on the values and motivations that shape our professional lives.

For managers, it’s a prompt to move beyond performance metrics and ask: how can we support people in realizing their full potential?

About Our Guest

Dr. Alan Waterman is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at The College of New Jersey. With a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from SUNY Buffalo, his career has centered on understanding what makes life and work worth living.

Al’s work blends philosophical and psychological perspectives, and he has authored or edited seven books, including The Best Within Us: Positive Psychological Perspectives on Eudaimonia (APA, 2014).

His forthcoming book, Flow Theory Re-Envisioned, is due out from Oxford University Press in Fall 2025.

P.S. Want to explore more of Alan Waterman’s thinking? Read the companion blog on our website for deeper insights and resources related to this episode.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew is joined by Dr. Latika Nirula, Director of the Centre for Faculty Development at the Temerty Faculty of Medicine at the University of Toronto. Latika supports healthcare professionals as they step into the role of educator (often for the first time) and helps them navigate the inner conflict that can arise when their identity doesn’t yet align with their responsibilities.

This conversation reflects on the role of storytelling, reflection, and community in shaping how people see themselves. Andrew and Latika also share their own experiences with imposter syndrome and speak candidly about what it feels like to be in a role where you’re still finding your footing.

Key Takeaways

• Teaching is more than a task. For many, it becomes an identity they grow into over time.
• Clinical educators often carry a strong sense of who they are as healthcare providers but need support to build confidence in their role as teachers.
• Imposter syndrome can be a sign that someone is stretching into something new. With the right support, those feelings can lead to growth.
• Community plays a critical role in how people make meaning of their work. Feeling part of something bigger can help people reconnect to purpose.
• Reflection and relationship are key to making professional growth feel meaningful and sustainable.

Why This Episode Matters

Many people take on roles they were never formally trained for. This episode offers a clear look at what helps people build confidence and find meaning when the path feels uncertain. It also highlights the kinds of conversations and communities that make that journey easier.

About Our Guest

Dr. Latika Nirula is an educational psychologist and the Director of the Centre for Faculty Development at the University of Toronto’s Temerty Faculty of Medicine. Her work focuses on coaching, faculty development, and helping clinical educators build their identity and capacity as teachers. She leads initiatives that bring people together through shared reflection and professional community.

P.S. Looking to bring more reflection and shared learning into your own team?

We’ve outlined one of Latika’s team rituals, called Critical Conversations, in our companion blog post. Check it out here!

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew is joined by Shige Oishi, Professor of Psychology at the University of Chicago, to explore his research on psychological richness. Shige challenges the longstanding view that happiness and meaning are the primary ingredients of well-being, and makes the case for a third dimension that’s often overlooked.

Together, they unpack what can make life feel full: curiosity, variety, a willingness to stray from the expected, and the ability to make sense of it all.

Shige shares how this idea applies not just to life in general, but to how we design our work, navigate our growth, and foster well-being in organizations.

Key Takeaways:

• Psychological richness is the diversity and complexity of life experience—and it matters just as much as happiness or purpose.
• People who pursue psychological richness tend to be more curious, adventurous, and open to growth.
• Even highly structured jobs can become more enriching through small changes, creative framing, or playful experimentation.
• Autonomy, storytelling, and exposure to the arts can help cultivate richness at work and beyond.

Why This Episode Matters:

If we want to make work, and life, feel truly fulfilling, we need more than comfort or cause. We need richness: the bittersweet, unpredictable, meaning-making stuff of experience.

About Our Guest:

Shige Oishi is a professor and leading well-being researcher at the University of Chicago. He studies how culture, context, and social conditions shape our understanding of what it means to live well. He’s also a parent, a lover of art and literature, and a firm believer in taking the scenic route—even on the way to class.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew is joined by Jordan Friesen, occupational therapist and President of Mindset Mental Health Strategy. Jordan draws on both lived experience and years of consulting with organizations across Canada to challenge a common assumption: that workplace mental health is something employees should manage alone.

Together, they explore why many well-being efforts fall short, what it means to take a systems-based approach to mental health, and how leaders can build environments where people aren’t just coping—but actually able to thrive. With a focus on systems, leadership, and accountability, Jordan offers a practical roadmap for making workplaces safer, healthier, and more supportive.

Key Takeaways:

• Supporting mental health at work starts with redesigning harmful systems—not offering more individual coping tools.
• Meaning and purpose can only flourish when people feel safe, supported, and not overwhelmed by structural stressors.
• Managers have as much impact on employee well-being as a spouse or partner—and need training to support that role.
• Emotional literacy, feedback, and vulnerability are essential leadership skills in today’s workplaces.
• Measuring impact—through story, data, or both—is critical to sustaining mental health initiatives over time.

Why This Episode Matters:

If we want people to find meaning at work, we need to start by eliminating the harm work can cause. This episode highlights how meaningful work starts with responsibility, thoughtful systems, and a commitment to well-being by design.

About Our Guest:

Jordan Friesen is the President of Mindset Mental Health Strategy Inc. He is a mental health expert with experience leading national programs and initiatives focused on workplace mental health. Jordan helps organizations take progressive action to support employee well-being—grounded in research, systems thinking, and his own lived experience of illness and recovery. A skilled educator and registered occupational therapist, he’s known for his pragmatic approach and ability to influence leaders at all levels.

In this episode, Andrew is joined by Kendall Cotton Bronk, Professor of Psychology at Claremont Graduate University and a leading expert in positive youth development. For over two decades, Kendall has studied how purpose emerges across life stages, why it’s essential for well-being, and how character and virtue help ensure our purpose serves the greater good.

Together, they explore the evolving nature of purpose—from adolescence to older adulthood—what role families and organizations play in shaping it, and why “beyond-the-self” goals are so critical in today’s world. Kendall also shares insights from her cross-cultural research and offers practical takeaways for anyone seeking to support others (or themselves) in living more purposeful lives.

Key Takeaways:

• Purpose is a long-term, personally meaningful goal aimed at contributing beyond the self.
• It often develops alongside identity during adolescence and young adulthood—but can be cultivated at any life stage.
• Purpose is culturally shaped, yet universally relevant: everyone wrestles with the question of what gives life meaning.
• Shared purpose—within families, organizations, or communities—requires strong relationships, humility, and intentional alignment across generations.
• Purpose needs to be paired with character and practical wisdom to ensure it contributes positively to others and society.

Why This Episode Matters:

Purpose is a powerful driver of resilience, life satisfaction, and contribution. Understanding how purpose develops and how we can support it in others can lead to stronger organizations, healthier communities, and more values-driven work.

About Our Guest:

Kendall Cotton Bronk, Ph.D. is the Principal Investigator for the Adolescent Moral Development Lab and a Professor of Psychology at Claremont Graduate University. A developmental scientist, her work explores the formation of purpose and character in young people and across the lifespan. She has led cross-cultural research around the globe and advised on how educators, parents, and mentors can foster purpose. Her research has been featured in NPR, The Wall Street Journal, and Forbes, and is supported by organizations including the Spencer Foundation, the Templeton foundations, and the Fulbright Program.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew Soren is joined by Dr. Mohsen Joshanloo, a cross-cultural psychologist and social scientist based in South Korea. Mohsen’s research challenges dominant Western models of well-being and explores how culture shapes our experiences of happiness, autonomy, and purpose.

Grounded in both theory and global data, Mohsen shares how our understanding of "meaning" is not only culturally shaped but deeply connected to our motivation, mental health, and resilience.

The conversation also highlights implications for leaders and organizations: if we want people to find purpose in their work, we must first help them feel like they matter.

Key Takeaways:

• Autonomy and meaning look different across cultures—there is no one-size-fits-all model.
• Emotional happiness isn't everyone's highest goal; fear of happiness is real and often culturally influenced.
• Eudaimonic well-being (based on purpose, virtue, and contribution) can predict future emotional well-being more than the other way around.
• People who lack purpose often place more importance on money for evaluating life satisfaction.
• Leaders can foster purpose at work by creating environments where people feel valued and impactful.

Why This Episode Matters:

If you’re a leader, HR professional, or researcher, this episode offers new insights into cultural differences in well-being and how these impact motivation and satisfaction at work.

Resources Mentioned:

• Mohsen Joshanloo’s personal website
  • Featured Open-Access Research:Authenticity and Well-being
  • Aversion to Happiness
  • Culture and Well-being

About Our Guest:

Dr. Mohsen Joshanloo is a personality and cross-cultural psychologist whose research explores mental well-being, culture, personality traits, emotions, and xenophobia. With a global perspective, he integrates data from countries across six continents to challenge the Western-dominated narrative in psychological science. Mohsen advocates for a more inclusive, international approach by incorporating insights from non-Western cultural contexts.

He is currently an Associate Professor in the Department of Psychology at Keimyung University in South Korea and an Honorary Principal Fellow at the Centre for Wellbeing Science at the University of Melbourne. Through his work, he continues to expand our understanding of how different cultures define and pursue happiness, purpose, and well-being.

Drawing from traditional texts and her experience making Jewish wisdom accessible through digital tools, Sara offers insights on maintaining our humanity while embracing technological progress.

Key Takeaways:

• Jewish tradition distinguishes between assigned labor (Avodah, עֲבוֹדָה) and creative labor (Melechah, מְלָאכָה), offering a framework for deciding which tasks to delegate to AI and which to preserve for human hands and minds
• Instead of asking if AI can do a task better, we should ask: "How do we want to spend our time?" and aim to free ourselves up for work that aligns with our deeper purpose
• Clear organizational values and mission statements are essential for making ethical decisions about which technologies to adopt and how to implement them
• Meaningful work doesn't always feel comfortable or easy – challenge and even occasional struggle can be part of what makes work meaningful

About Sara Wolkenfeld:

Sara Wolkenfeld is the Chief Learning Officer at Sefaria, an online database and interface for Jewish texts. She is a member of Class Six of the Wexner Field Fellowship, a rabbinic alumna of the David Hartman Center at the Hartman Institute of North America, and serves as Scholar-in-Residence at Ohev Sholom Congregation in Washington, DC. Her current research and writing focus on the intersection between Jewish ethics and advancements in technology. Sara and her husband, David, live in Washington, DC with their five children.

Resources Mentioned:

• Sefaria: Online platform making Jewish texts accessible (www.sefaria.org)
• Sara Wolkenfeld's article in The Atlantic: Work, Labor, and Artificial Intelligence in Jewish Texts
• Sara's article in Religious Dispatches: How An Ancient Story of Renegade Rabbis Can Help Us Navigate ChatGPT
• Ohev Sholom Congregation in Washington, DC: www.ohevdc.org

Key Takeaways:

• Leaders offer opportunities for meaning rather than creating it directly - employees must discover their own sense of purpose
• "Meaning killing" behaviors like ignoring contributions or failing to provide feedback can significantly undermine employees' sense of purpose
• Simple practices like timely acknowledgment and specific affirmation can make a significant difference in fostering meaning at work

About Petra Kipfelsberger:

Petra Kipfelsberger is an Associate Professor at BI Norwegian Business School with a PhD from the University of St. Gallen. Her research focuses on inspirational leadership, meaningful work, and how organizations thrive during uncertainty. She has been a Visiting Research Fellow at Boston College and IESE Business School, serves as a board member of IGNITE, and coaches global C-level executives.

Resources Mentioned:

• Viktor Frankl's work and life story
• Killing Me Softly With His/Her Song: How Leaders Dismantle Followers' Sense of Work Meaningfulness
• Developing Authenticity: A Quasi-Experimental Investigation

Key Takeaways:

• Job crafting involves personalizing your work in five key areas: tasks, skills, purpose, relationships, and well-being - creating small changes that make your job a better fit for you.
• Effective job crafting doesn't require massive changes - even "micro-crafting" for 5-10 minutes daily can significantly impact your energy, engagement, and satisfaction at work.
• Leaders can support job crafting by listening sincerely, creating space for experimentation, and embedding crafting conversations into regular performance discussions.

About Rob Baker:

Rob Baker is the founder and Chief Positive Deviant of Tailored Thinking, an award-winning evidence-based positive psychology and HR consultancy. Named #8 Most Influential Thinker by HR Magazine in 2023, Rob is a world-leading expert on job crafting in workplaces. He's a TEDX speaker and author of "Personalization at Work," a finalist at the 2021 Business Book Awards.

With a first-class Masters in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Melbourne, Rob combines academic rigor with practical application, helping organizations make work better and make better work.

Resources Mentioned:

• Tailored Thinking: tailoredthinking.co.uk
• Connect with Rob on LinkedIn and Instagram
• Personalization at Work - Rob's book on job crafting

In part two of our conversation with Reb Rebele, we explore the hidden costs of collaboration and generosity in the workplace. Building on last week's discussion about personality dynamics, Reb shares why organizations face ‘collaborative overload’, how helpful employees often burn out first, and what individuals and teams can do to reclaim their time and energy.

Reb shares practical strategies for balancing helping others with protecting our own wellbeing, from setting boundaries to reassessing team norms around meetings and communication.

If you've ever felt overextended at work or struggled to manage the demands of collaboration, this episode offers valuable frameworks for creating more sustainable ways of working together.

Key Takeaways:

• Organizations need systematic approaches to manage collaboration, from tech tools to meeting policies.
• "Selfless" helping can actually reduce impact - maintaining healthy boundaries helps sustain meaningful contributions.
• Effective collaboration requires both individual strategies (like resource management) and organizational solutions.

About Our Guest:

Reb Rebele is a psychological scientist and advisor who teaches at the University of Melbourne and whose research on personality psychology and organizational behavior has been published in leading academic journals and outlets such as The Atlantic and Harvard Business Review. Reb’s work focuses on understanding how individuals and organizations can work together more effectively while supporting wellbeing.

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Want to move from theory to practice? Join our pilot PodClub session on February 26th, where thoughtful professionals like you will explore how to make meaningful work a reality.

Learn more at eubd.ca/podclub.

In this Meaningful Work Matters two-part episode, psychological scientist and organizational behavior expert Reb Rebele joins Andrew to explore how understanding personality dynamics can help us navigate meaningful work more effectively.

Drawing from research at the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Melbourne, Reb challenges common assumptions about authenticity and explains how different aspects of personality can be intentionally adjusted to meet goals while maintaining sincerity.

Key Takeaways:

• Everyone contains multitudes: We all have different sides to our personality that we can express in different situations
• Authenticity isn't about consistency: Being "true to yourself" means acknowledging and working with your various authentic expressions
• Resource management is crucial: Expressing different aspects of your personality at work requires understanding your energy needs and restoration patterns
• Strategic self-regulation: Learn how to be "the right version of yourself at the right time" through intentional personality regulation

About Our Guest:

Reb Rebele is a psychological scientist and advisor who teaches at the University of Melbourne and who’s research on personality psychology and organizational behavior has been published in leading academic journals and outlets such as The Atlantic and Harvard Business Review.

Part 2 of this conversation, coming out next week, Reb and Andrew explore the dynamics of collaboration and generosity in the workplace.

Want to move from theory to practice? Join our pilot PodClub session on February 26th, where thoughtful professionals like you will explore how to make meaningful work a reality. Learn more at eubd.ca/podclub.

Key Takeaways:

• Indigenous employees derive meaning from work through three core elements:
  • A sense of belonging and contribution to a generational community
  • Holistic connectedness with both community and land
  • Culturally relevant job design that aligns with personal and community values
• Organizations often exploit Indigenous employees' community-driven motivations without providing proper support or recognition
• Meaningful work can serve as a potential avenue for reconciliation but is not a substitution for structural changes

About Our Guests:

• Dr. Adam Murry (Ukrainian, Irish, Apache) is an associate professor of psychology at the University of Calgary and director of the Indigenous Organizations and Communities Research Lab. With a PhD in industrial-organizational psychology, he focuses on applied mixed-method research contributing to Indigenous affairs in employment, education, health, and mental health.
• Alvan Yuan (Canadian, Taiwanese) is a PhD candidate in industrial-organizational psychology at the University of Calgary. Their research explores how individuals derive meaning and purpose from work, with a particular focus on understanding employment dynamics, sense-making, and learning through mixed-methods approaches.

Resources Mentioned:

• Indigenous Organizations and Communities Research Lab at the University of Calgary
• Tuck and Yang's "Decolonization is Not a Metaphor" (2012)

Through her personal journey from achievement-focused athlete to purpose-driven leader, Sonya shares insights from her research on how perfectionists can find deeper satisfaction by focusing on social impact rather than just personal accomplishment.

Sonya also discusses her research on perfectionism, goal attainment, and mattering, and offers a fresh perspective on how high achievers can break free from the cycle of perpetual dissatisfaction.

The conversation examines how shifting focus from individual achievement to "other-ish" goals - those that benefit both self and others - can lead to more fulfilling work and genuine sense of accomplishment.

Key Takeaways:

• Perfectionism operates in three dimensions: high personal standards, high standards for others, and meeting societal expectations
• The importance of shifting from pride-based to impact-based measures of accomplishment
• How "other-ish" goals can help perfectionists find meaning beyond personal achievement
• The value of immeasurable impacts in creating genuine satisfaction
• Practical strategies for balancing perfectionist tendencies with meaningful work

About Our Guest:

Sonya Looney is a world champion professional mountain biker with 20 years of racing experience across the globe. Beyond her athletic achievements, she hosts the Sonya Looney Show (soon to be rebranded as "Grow the Good" podcast) and recently completed her Master's in Applied Positive Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, where she conducted innovative research on perfectionism and meaningful achievement.

Resources Mentioned:

• Give and Take by Adam Grant
• Transcend by Scott Barry Kaufman

Connect with Sonya:

• Website: sonyalooney.com
• Podcast: The Sonya Looney Show (soon to be "Grow the Good")

In this episode, Andrew takes the guest seat as Sonya interviews him about the complex relationship between meaningful work and well-being, exploring why work that feels deeply important can sometimes lead to exploitation or burnout.

Key topics discussed:

• Understanding eudaimonia and its relationship to meaningful work
• The "dark side" of meaningful work and how passion can lead to self-exploitation
• Six different ways people find meaning in their work, from utilitarian purposes to service
• The critical balance between meaning and workplace decency
• How mattering—feeling valued and adding value—influences job satisfaction and retention
• The role of organizations and leadership in fostering sustainable meaningful work

This episode was originally recorded for The Sonya Looney Show and is shared here as part of a special two-part crossover series.

Don't miss our next episode of Meaningful Work Matters where Sonya will join as our guest to discuss navigating perfectionism, redefining achievement, and using our goals to create positive impact.

Connect with The Sonya Looney Show

[Click here to listen to Part One, where Anne discusses identity and meaning in the legal profession]

As both a former Big Law equity partner and organizational psychologist, Brafford offers unique insights into how understanding and supporting basic psychological needs can transform workplace cultures. Through research-backed explanations and practical examples, she shares how motivation develops on a continuum from amotivation to various forms of extrinsic motivation to intrinsic autonomous motivation

The conversation examines how leaders can move beyond command-and-control to create environments where people genuinely want to engage in their work. Brafford unpacks the three fundamental psychological needs - autonomy, competence, and relatedness - and explains their crucial role in fostering meaningful work experiences.

Drawing from both her academic research and real-world experience, she shares concrete strategies for "needs crafting", or, ways individuals can proactively shape their work experience to better satisfy their psychological needs.

Key Takeaways:

• Self-Determination Theory provides a practical framework for understanding how psychological needs drive meaningful work
• Autonomous motivation is essential for experiencing meaningfulness - you won't find work meaningful without it
• Leaders can support psychological needs through perspective-taking, need-supportive communication, and helping frame work's significance
• Individuals can actively craft their work experience to better satisfy their psychological needs through intentional daily practices

About Our Guest:

Dr. Anne Brafford is a thought leader in workplace wellbeing and organizational psychology, with a particular focus on the legal profession. As owner of Aspire and co-founder of the Institute for Well-Being in Law, she bridges academic research with practical application to help organizations create more engaging and meaningful work environments.

Her book "Positive Professionals" provides science-based guidance for increasing engagement in law firms, and her forthcoming second edition will further explore how Self-Determination Theory can transform workplace cultures.

Her unique background as both a practicing lawyer and organizational psychologist allows her to translate complex psychological theories into actionable strategies for professional service organizations.

Drawing from her two-decade career as an employment lawyer and subsequent academic work, Brafford shares her insights about how personal values, professional identity, and moral courage shape our experience of meaningful work.

Brafford illuminates how lawyers find meaning in their work beyond the traditional narrative of public service, highlighting the importance of moral exemplars and ethical decision-making in corporate law. She also shares encouraging examples of how some law firms are evolving to create more inclusive, purposeful work environments in response to recent social changes.

Key Takeaways:

• Meaningful work influences how different individuals experience purpose in similar roles
• Moral exemplars in professional settings can help others navigate ethical challenges while maintaining meaningful engagement
• Local, everyday meaning can be as important as broader purpose in creating fulfilling work experiences

About Our Guest:

Dr. Anne Brafford (JD, MAPP, PhD) is a leading voice in lawyer well-being and workplace engagement. As the owner of Aspire, an education and consulting firm for the legal profession, and a founder of the Institute for Well-Being in Law, she brings both practical experience and academic rigor to her work.

Previously an equity partner at one of the nation's largest law firms, Anne now focuses on helping the legal profession build engaging workplaces where people and businesses can grow and succeed together. She holds a PhD in positive organizational psychology from Claremont Graduate University and a Master's in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania.

Her research and consulting work centers on the intersection of inclusion, engagement, and well-being in professional settings.

Resources Mentioned:

• Book: Positive Professionals: Creating High-Performing, Profitable Firms Through the Science of Engagement by Anne Brafford
• Article: "Judges' Well-Being and the Importance of Meaningful Work" (Court Review)
• Article: "Five Ways to Foster Meaningful Work and Boost Lawyer Well-Being" (Texas Bar Journal)
• Lawyer Well-Being YouTube Channel
• Institute for Well-Being in Law
• The Good Work Project

Note: This is Part 1 of a two-part series. Tune in next week for Part 2, where Anne and Andrew dive deeper into Self-Determination Theory and its practical applications for creating meaningful work environments.

From her early years in India grappling with family mental health challenges to her current role as leading purpose researcher and coach, Sharma shares how Buddhist philosophy and academic research have shaped her understanding of purpose as something that rises above the pursuit of happiness towards creating positive change both within ourselves and society.

Through personal stories and research insights, she introduces her five-part model for cultivating purpose - explore, engage, reflect, articulate, and actualize - offering a flexible framework for aligning daily work with values and fulfillment. The conversation tackles important themes around cultural context, gender, work-life harmony, and how to maintain purpose while navigating challenging organizational systems.

Key Takeaways:

• Purpose involves both individual growth and contribution to collective well-being - it's not just about personal satisfaction
• Having a sense of purpose is more protective against depression than life satisfaction
• The five phases of purpose development: explore, engage, reflect, articulate, and actualize
• Purpose can be found both within and outside of work - sometimes work enables purpose in other life domains
• The importance of community support and mentorship in developing and maintaining purpose, especially for underrepresented groups

About Our Guest:

Dr. Gitima Sharma is an Associate Professor of Counseling at California State University, Fresno and Founder of CoachInspire. With a Ph.D. in Counselor Education from Penn State, she has published over 30 research articles on purpose and well-being, while mentoring more than 100 students and clients. Her work integrates academic research, evidence-based practices, and humanistic principles to foster cultures of empathy, care, and positive impact.

Resources Mentioned:

• Download the Purpose Finder Worksheet here
• Access Sharma's academic publications via her Google Scholar profile
• Learn more about the principles that inform her work at buddhability.org
• Schedule a consultation through CoachInspire
• Connect with Sharma on LinkedIn

As both a researcher and practitioner in organizational psychology, Mercurio shares profound insights into how the experience of mattering shapes workplace behavior, engagement, and well-being. Through compelling stories and research-backed observations, he explains how mattering isn't just about feeling valued, but about the essential human instinct to be significant to others.

The conversation delves into how recent global events like the pandemic have amplified people's search for meaning, leading to phenomena like the Great Resignation and Quiet Quitting.

Mercurio offers practical leadership strategies for creating cultures where people feel noticed, affirmed, and needed, while also examining the potential dark sides of mattering when taken to extremes.

Key Takeaways:

• Mattering is both a survival instinct and psychological need that requires systemic support through organizational culture, practices, and leadership behaviors
• Leaders need specific skills and practices to help others feel noticed, affirmed, and needed - intuition alone isn't enough
• The experience of anti-mattering often leads to either withdrawal behaviors or acts of desperation in the workplace
• Organizations need to move beyond relying on intuition and create concrete practices and systems that enable and ensure mattering behaviors

About Our Guest:

Dr. Zach Mercurio is a researcher, author, and thought leader in purposeful leadership and organizational psychology. As a Research and Teaching Fellow at Colorado State University's Center for Meaning and Purpose, his work focuses on how mattering and meaningful work drive human behavior and organizational success.

His research has been recognized by leading academic and professional organizations, and his forthcoming book "The Power of Mattering: How Leaders Can Create a Culture of Significance" will be published by Harvard Business Review Press in 2025.

Beyond his academic work, Zach consults with global organizations to develop purposeful leaders and cultures where people experience significance. His unique position as both a researcher and practitioner allows him to bridge the gap between academic insights and practical application in organizational settings.

Dr. Oelberger shares her research about frontline workers in caring professions, introducing a revolutionary approach called "human accompaniment" that challenges traditional assumptions about meaningful work in helping roles.

Key Topics Explored:

• The myth of agency in mission-driven work
• Three distinct approaches to frontline work
• Human accompaniment as a sustainable practice
• Rethinking hiring practices and qualifications
• Policy-level changes needed to support meaningful work
• Cross-cultural perspectives on workplace support

Quote from the Episode:

"The myth of agency is this false cultural idea that an individual can fully overcome structural and institutional barriers through strategic individual behaviors... this often leads to burnout, because people enter this work with these huge inflated understandings of how they're going to be able to make change." - Dr. Carrie Oelberger

Key Takeaways:

1. Traditional approaches to frontline work often lead to burnout or apathy
2. Human accompaniment offers a sustainable alternative to "fixing" or "processing" approaches
3. Formal qualifications may sometimes hinder rather than help effective caring work
4. Lived experience and emotional intelligence are often more valuable than academic credentials
5. Systemic support is needed to create sustainable meaningful work

About Our Guest:

Dr. Carrie Oelberger is an Associate Professor at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey School of Public Affairs and a McKnight Land Grant Professor. Combining sociology and psychology in her approach to organizational studies, she brings both academic rigor and practical experience to her research on meaningful work. Her current work focuses on creating systemic changes to support sustainable meaningful work at societal, organizational, and individual levels.

Dr. Oelberger's insights reveal how meaningful work can both enhance and complicate our lives, especially regarding work-life boundaries and relationships.

Key Topics Explored:

• Values alignment and individual work preferences
• The relationship between meaningful work and job security
• Boundary inhibition in highly meaningful work
• Impact of meaningful work on personal relationships
• Intersectional challenges in mission-driven work
• Leadership considerations for managing meaningful work

Quote from the Episode:

"People who find their work deeply meaningful... that boundary around their work time is inhibited, not by their employers actually, but by themselves. They are really devoting themselves - physically, emotionally, mentally - to their workplaces, because they find so much meaning in it." - Dr. Carrie Oelberger

Key Takeaways:

1. One size fits none when it comes to meaningful work - individual preferences and values vary significantly
2. Job security matters universally, regardless of stated preferences
3. The impact of meaningful work on personal life varies significantly across different identities and social positions
4. Meaningful work can turn into armour we wear that weighs heavily on personal relationships.
5. Organizations need to actively manage the potential dark sides of meaningful work

Resources Mentioned:

• Research on work-life boundaries by Mary Blair-Loy
• Vivek Murthy's workplace wellbeing framework
• David Blustein's research on decent work
• Scott Barry Kaufman's interpretation of Maslow's hierarchy

About Our Guest:

Dr. Carrie Oelberger is an Associate Professor at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey School of Public Affairs and a McKnight Land Grant Professor. Her research on meaningful work is deeply informed by her experience leading a grassroots NGO in Tanzania, where she developed the country's first rural community education resource center. Her work examines how organizations can balance meaningful work with sustainable workforce management, particularly in mission-driven contexts.

Dr. Hill challenges conventional notions of purpose, advocating for a more accessible and actionable approach that focuses on everyday direction rather than grand, overwhelming goals.

Key Takeaways:

1. Purpose should be viewed as adaptable, accessible, and actionable rather than a lofty, unattainable goal.
2. Focusing on small, everyday actions that provide direction can be more beneficial than pursuing a grand "big P" purpose.
3. Dialogue and support systems are crucial for exploring and maintaining a sense of purpose, especially in challenging contexts.
4. Organizations should focus on specific purpose-based activities rather than vague purpose statements.
5. Activists can have a strong sense of purpose, but it doesn’t always help their well-being, especially when they lack strong support systems.

About Our Guest:

Dr. Patrick Hill is a professor of psychological and brain sciences at Washington University in St. Louis. His research program examines how to cultivate a life direction and how purpose promotes adaptive lifespan development. Dr. Hill received his PhD from the University of Notre Dame and his BA from Indiana University. His work provides valuable insights into the practical applications of purpose in various life domains, including work and personal development.

Key Topics Explored:

• The "triple helix" of good work: excellence, engagement, and ethics
• Defining purpose as an active commitment with personal meaning and societal impact
• How purpose evolves throughout one's career and life stages
• Critical mindsets for cultivating purpose: gratitude and service
• Balancing meritocracy, equity, and the potential dark sides of meaningful work

Quote from the Episode:

"Purpose is an active commitment to accomplish something that is both meaningful to the self and of consequence to the world beyond the self." - William Damon

Key Takeaways:

1. Purpose develops gradually over a lifetime, requiring adaptation to changing circumstances.
2. Gratitude and a sense of service are crucial for fostering purpose, especially in younger individuals.
3. The pursuit of excellence through hard work remains important, even as workplace values evolve.

Resources Mentioned:

• "Good Work: When Excellence and Ethics Meet" by Howard Gardner, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, and William Damon
• "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren

About Our Guest:

William Damon is a Professor of Education at Stanford University and Senior Fellow (by courtesy) at the Hoover Institution. He is one of the world's leading researchers in human development and a pioneer in the study of how people find purpose.

Damon has authored numerous influential books, including "The Path to Purpose," "Greater Expectations" (winner of the Parent's Choice Book Award), "Good Work" (with Howard Gardner and Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi), and "Some Do Care: Contemporary Lives of Moral Commitment" (with Anne Colby).

His most recent book, "A Round of Golf with my Father," explores narrative methods for fostering positive identity, gratitude, and redemption of regrets.

Damon is a Fellow of the National Academy of Education and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and has spent his career advancing our understanding of moral development, purpose, and positive youth development.

If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe to Meaningful Work Matters on your favorite podcast platform!

Jess shares her research findings and practical insights on navigating the interplay between stress and purpose in our professional lives, challenging common assumptions about meaningful work.

Key topics discussed:

• The six "handshakes" between stress and meaningful work (10:15)
• How meaningful work can both exacerbate and alleviate stress (13:30)
• The concept of "bottomless pit" of meaningful work in certain professions (11:45)
• Strategies for individuals to navigate stress in purposeful careers (22:45)
• The role of organizations in fostering meaningful work while managing stress (25:30)
• Career crafting as a tool for sustainable meaningful work (35:20)

Guest Bio:

Jess Annison is a UK-based positive psychology practitioner, leadership coach, and career consultant. With a background in organizational change and a master's in applied positive psychology, Jess brings both practical experience and academic insights to the discussion of meaningful work.

Resources mentioned:

• "A Few Things in Life Are Easy and Worth Doing" research paper by Jess Annison (Frontiers in Psychology)
• Job Demands-Resources Theory (05:30)
• Bunderson and Thompson's zookeeper study on meaningful work (10:45)
• Michael Steger's CARMA model for leadership behaviors (28:15)

Listeners will gain a nuanced understanding of the stress-meaning relationship in their careers and learn practical strategies for creating sustainable, fulfilling work lives. This episode encourages reflection on the complexities of meaningful work and offers insights for both individuals and organizations in navigating these challenges.

Elaine shares her insights on creating more authentic and inclusive work environments by addressing the complex dynamics of silence in the workplace.

Key topics discussed:

• The concept of "unlearning silence" and its importance in workplace communication (2:57)
• Cultural and societal factors contributing to learned silence (12:57)
• Strategies for individuals to reconnect with their authentic voice (38:02)
• The role of leaders in creating environments where diverse voices are valued (43:56)
• Balancing strategic silence and oppressive silence (34:06)

Guest Bio:

Elaine Lin Hering is a recovering attorney turned accidental author. With over a decade of experience in corporate education and leadership development, Elaine has dedicated her career to improving workplace communication and helping people show up authentically in their professional and personal lives.

Resources mentioned:

• "Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully" by Elaine Lin Hering
• Ankari Williams' work on micro-activism (36:06)
• Research on psychological safety in the workplace (27:29)

Listeners will gain practical advice for both individuals and managers on fostering environments where every voice can be heard, contributing to more meaningful and impactful work.

This episode challenges listeners to reflect on their own relationship with silence and provides actionable steps for creating more authentic and inclusive workplaces.

While the pursuit of meaningful work is often celebrated, Frank sheds light on both its benefits and potential pitfalls.

Drawing from his extensive research, he offers a comprehensive view of what constitutes meaningful work. He introduces a innovative model of well-being that bridges individual needs with broader societal and environmental concerns.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into:

• The key dimensions that make work truly meaningful
• How to recognize and navigate the potential downsides of highly engaging work
• A fresh perspective on well-being that goes beyond traditional measures
• The crucial link between personal fulfillment and sustainable practices

In this episode, we explore the concept of principled rebellion with Dr. Todd Kashdan, a renowned psychologist and professor at George Mason University. With over two decades of research in positive psychology and well-being, Dr. Kashdan offers valuable insights into fostering meaningful dissent in the workplace.

Listeners will discover strategies for navigating organizational dynamics, championing new ideas, and creating environments that welcome constructive disagreement.

Dr. Kashdan examines the delicate balance between innovation and conformity, providing a nuanced perspective on how principled insubordination can lead to more fulfilling and impactful work.

Antoinette is a leading expert in organizational psychology and has been at the forefront of research and initiatives aimed at fostering good leadership in organizations and societies.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Antoinette and Andrew dive into the complexities of meaningful work, the critiques of positive psychology in organizational contexts, and Antoinette's work on reimagining performance management to better support human flourishing.

Antoinette's insights on practical wisdom, ethics, and the role of business in society provide a thought-provoking framework for rethinking the future of work.

Listeners will leave this episode with a deeper understanding of the limitations of traditional performance management systems and the need for a more holistic, ethical approach to supporting employee flourishing.

Professor Kwon reveals how a deep love for one's work can lead people to see their passion as the "right" reason for working. However, this moralization can sometimes result in negative outcomes like guilt, self-exploitation, and neglect of other important aspects of life.

Through her research in Latin America and the US, Kwon found that moralizing passion can also reinforce existing biases.

Andrew and Mijeong explore the intricate balance between intrinsic factors like passion and extrinsic factors like pay and status. They also discuss practical strategies for managers to support diverse motivations and create safe environments where passion can flourish.

The conversation highlights the complexities of passion and meaning at work and emphasizes that true leadership involves recognizing that different things motivate different people.

Ella Henry is a prominent figure in Māori Indigenous development with a background in sociology, business, and Māori media. Over the past two decades, she has been actively involved in research, teaching, and advocacy. Ella's extensive involvement includes serving as a Treaty Negotiator for Ngātikahu ki Whangaroa and as Director of Māori Advancement for the Business School.

Throughout this episode, Ella discusses traditional Maori models of well-being, which emphasize healing the whole person through strong connections between body, emotions, intellect, spirituality, and family/community.

She explains that the Maori concept of "calling" is about understanding one's innate strengths and being nurtured towards work that aligns with those abilities rather than seeing it as a higher calling from an external source.

Through her thoughtful storytelling and analysis, Ella offers valuable Indigenous perspectives that provide new lenses for understanding the relationship between work, identity, and living well.

Mat reveals how to harness the power of experience design to infuse work with greater meaning. You’ll learn how intentional design can turn everyday tasks into impactful experiences that resonate deeply with you and those around you.

Discover the art of co-creating experiences and understand how your unique background influences the way you perceive and engage with the world. Mat guides us through the parallels between experience design and theater, helping us see our roles as both audience members and actors in life's journey.

Through this conversation, you’ll gain a deeper understanding of how intentional experience design can contribute to creating meaningful work—both inside and outside the workplace.

Gerard and Kimberley have spent over a decade researching the dimensions of strong leadership character through rigorous studies involving thousands of leaders. They developed an evidence-based framework identifying 11 key aspects of character, such as accountability, collaboration, courage, and humanity.

But character development has long been neglected in business education. As Gerard explains, their work aims to bring character back into the leadership conversation where it belongs.

With compelling research and real-world examples, this discussion brings the complex yet vital topic of character to life.

You’ll walk away with a renewed understanding of how developing strengths like humility, courage, and justice can unlock potential and design truly meaningful work.

Marjo Lips-Wiersma, Professor of Ethics and Sustainability Leadership at Auckland University of Technology, has researched meaningful work, sustainability, hope and well-being for decades, and her work is utilized by organizations worldwide. She is also the co-director of Map of Meaning.

In this episode, Marjo and Andrew discuss the complexity of defining meaningful work and why it can be difficult to discuss in organizations. Marjo also outlines key dimensions of workplace meaning, including contribution, potential, relationships, and integrity.

Marjo provides tools for reconciling inspiration and reality, helping listeners understand meaningful work in both aspirational and grounded terms.

Overall, this thought-provoking discussion offers frameworks to design work that supports people's well-being in a meaningful way.

Jeff Thompson shares his insights from over two decades of teaching and researching meaningful work, particularly in healthcare. He defines a calling as the convergence of natural talents, passions, and purpose, illustrating its historical roots and contemporary relevance.

Drawing on recent research, Jeff discusses the concept of a "transcendent calling" and its profound impact on motivation and fulfillment. He highlights studies, including one on zookeepers, that challenge stereotypes and reveal deep dedication rooted in passion and purpose.

Jeff provides actionable strategies for leaders to cultivate gratitude, growth opportunities, and a sense of community among their teams.

Andrew and Dr. Prilleltensky discuss the importance of meaningful work and mattering. Dr. Prilleltensky draws from his scholarly research on topics like justice, mattering, and well-being, as well as his practical experience improving workplace environments.

Dr. Prilleltenky shares insights into how feeling valued through recognition while adding value to others through meaningful contributions are key but often overlooked aspects of workplace engagement. He discusses strategies for prioritizing employee dignity, recognition, and collective success to create a "we culture" where fairness and belonging are prioritized over individual pursuits.

For people managers and leaders: you will learn concrete ways to foster environments where all staff feel they matter.

If you'd like to learn more about Dr. Prilleltenky or get in touch, head this way!

Dr. Lysova is on a mission to help people find more significance in their work and daily lives. But she doesn’t shy away from the topic's complexity. In this episode, she delves into the interplay between individual values, job design, corporate social responsibility (CSR), and societal expectations that shape our pursuit of meaningful work.

Amidst the evolving landscape of work, particularly with the advent of artificial intelligence, Dr. Lysova explores the challenges and opportunities in sustaining meaningfulness.

The conversation also ventures into practical strategies for individuals and organizations to cultivate a culture where meaningful work thrives, emphasizing the importance of mindfulness, reflection, and fostering supportive relationships.

Join us as we unravel the layers of meaningful work, offering insights for organizational leaders, coaches, and consultants who aim to unlock the full potential of their teams and create work environments that help unlock people's gifts, strengths, and potential.

Michael shares six work orientations that people tend to bring to their professional lives. We might be motivated by utilitarian motives, status, passion, service, kinship or mastery. Michael draws from his extensive organizational behavior and sociology background to show the influence of culture on our perceptions of meaningful work. Michael reflects on his research journey, highlighting the pivotal role of familial upbringing, societal norms, and media portrayals in shaping our understanding and motivations around work.

As the discussion unfolds, Pratt shares actionable strategies for organizations looking to cultivate a more meaningful work environment. From fostering open dialogue to providing opportunities for role customization, he offers pragmatic advice for leaders seeking to empower their teams and foster a sense of purpose and fulfillment in their work. 

Tune in for a thought-provoking conversation that promises to inspire meaningful change in how we validate meaningful work in ourselves and others.

Throughout the conversation, Joe shares insights from the Mid-Life in the United States study (MIDUS) - a national longitudinal study of health and well-being in the US - aimed at understanding successful aging. MIDUS is unique because it measures social, biological, economic, and psychological factors across disciplines. Today, it is one of the largest studies of its kind, funded by the National Institute on Health.

Andrew and Joe also explore the complex interplay between work and family, highlighting the enriching synergy and potential discord between these spheres. Joe contrasts the segmented reality prevalent in the United States with the integrated ethos found in other cultures. He also delves into the pervasive phenomenon of alienation, which can erode the significance of work and impact mental health.

Ultimately, Joe encourages listeners to pursue meaningful work while cautioning against pursuing perfection, urging individuals to embrace the intrinsic value embedded within life's multifaceted domains.

Join us for a thoughtful discussion on human flourishing and fulfillment!

Sara is the Director of the Worker Power Coalition and is a strong advocate for worker empowerment. She uses her experience growing up in a working-class family to drive her passion for social justice and grassroots organizing. With a particular focus on the rights of marginalized workers, Sara is a champion of intersectional activism and works hard to amplify diverse voices. Even beyond her role, Sara mentors future leaders and contributes to national discourse through media appearances.

Andrew and Sara discuss the unique role of unions in promoting dignity and decency in the workplace, as well as the power dynamics that often lead to the exploitation of workers. They explore the intersection between employee activism and meaningful work, highlighting the positive impact of activism on individual well-being and workplace change.

The conversation also touches upon the impact of the pandemic on worker well-being, the need for policy changes to support workers, and the importance of recognizing the humanity of workers in organizations.

Steve Leventhal is the Founder and CEO of WorldBeing, which addresses the challenges and intersections between inner health and global well-being. WorldBeing programming focuses on vulnerable and marginalized adolescent women and youth in low and middle-income countries. 

Steve and Andrew discuss the notion of meaningfulness within a deeply meaningful workplace, such as a nonprofit or social impact organization. Steve suggests employees approach the work from a place of compassion versus anger to avoid burning out. He also reflects on his approach to building his organization, emphasizing internal training that mirrors the programming the organization delivers to its beneficiaries. 

Steve reflects on the early days of founding his nonprofit and walking a fine line between pushing his envisioned values and listening to what his staff wanted to emulate and foster. 

We know you’ll leave this conversation feeling inspired, motivated, and possibly reevaluating how meaningful work shows up in your life.

Scott has done groundbreaking research on intelligence, creativity, and human potential. He is the founder and director of the Center for Human Potential and the founder of Self-Actualization Coaching. Scott is interested in using his research, podcast, teaching, and coaching to help all minds live a creative, fulfilling, and self-actualized life. His early educational experiences made him realize the deep reservoir of untapped potential of students, including bright and creative children diagnosed with a learning disability.

Over the last few years, Scott has dug deep into the work of Abraham Maslow. In this conversation, we hear why Maslow never would have described our human needs as a pyramid. Instead, our journey to self-actualization and transcendence is more like a sailboat. The hull represents our safety, connection, and self-esteem needs — keeping us floating on top of the water. Our sails, fueled by exploration, purpose, and love — provide us with a system of growth that allows us to travel great distances.

As the conversation deepens, Scott shares Maslow's vision for the psychology of the peace table, reflecting on the urgent need to understand human nature, division, and the potential for peace. The episode resonates with wisdom, challenging listeners to reconsider their perspectives on work, growth, and the profound possibilities embedded in meaningful living.

Explore this and other episodes of Meaningful Work Matters 👉 https://www.eudaimonicbydesign.com/podcast

During this conversation, Tamara and Wes discuss impact potential, recruiting for values, and fostering personal connections. They point out that adopting these behaviors can make workplaces more harmonious and productive.

This podcast episode offers valuable insights into how organizations can create a more inclusive and collaborative workplace culture. By implementing the six behaviors discussed in the episode, leaders can bridge generational and cultural divides and make work meaningful for everyone.

For those interested in following along with Wes and Tamara's research, be sure to visit: makeworkmeaningful.co while you wait for the release of their book.

Don't forget to follow the Meaningful Work Matters podcast and leave a review to share your thoughts on today's conversation. Your feedback helps us continue bringing you valuable insights into the world of work and meaning!

Dr. Bailey has been a driving force behind various projects, including editing the Oxford Handbook of Meaningful Work and establishing the Meaning and Purpose Network (MAP Net) at King's College. She has collaborated with leading thinkers throughout her career, bridging the gap between academia and real-world applications.

As the dialogue unfolds, Dr. Bailey introduces the concept of "existential labor," where individuals may act as if they find their work meaningful due to organizational pressures. This prompts an insightful discussion on meaningful work's personal and moral aspects, emphasizing the importance of aligning work with an individual's values.

Don't forget to follow the Meaningful Work Matters podcast and leave a review to share your thoughts on today's conversation. Your feedback helps us continue bringing you valuable insights into the world of work and meaning!

This episode features Kim Cameron, a renowned expert in the field of positive organizational scholarship and a faculty member at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business. Kim's work focuses on virtuous organizations and their impact on performance and well-being.

Andrew and Kim discuss the essence of virtuous organizations and the incredible transformation they can bring about. Kim shares insights from his extensive research, including eight key dimensions that are pivotal in fostering virtuousness within an organization. From gratitude and appreciation to trust and integrity, these dimensions create a holistic environment for individuals to flourish.

Discover inspiring real-life stories of organizations that have embraced virtuousness in their cultures, even during challenging times like downsizing or a pandemic. If you're interested in understanding how virtuous organizations can positively impact performance, well-being, and culture, this conversation with Kim Cameron is a must-listen. Don't miss this insightful discussion on how virtuousness can transform the workplace and create environments where meaningful work truly matters.

For more resources and information on positive organizational scholarship, visit the Center for Positive Organizations at the University of Michigan.

This episode features David Blustein, distinguished professor and Golden Eagle Faculty Fellow at Boston College, where he is part of the Lynch School of Education and Human Development. With a decades-long dedication to the field of psychology, Blustein's work focuses on the psychology of working, advocating for dignity and decency in the workplace, and promoting meaningful work for all individuals, particularly those on the margins of the workforce. His contributions have advanced the understanding of the intricate relationship between work, well-being, and social justice.

David shares his personal journey and the passion that has fueled his decades-long exploration of the psychology of working. He delves into the critical distinction between decency and dignity at the workplace and how organizations can foster both. 

For researchers and practitioners, this episode offers invaluable insights into promoting social justice and morality within organizational research and practice. 

There were several referenced articles and works in this episode that we hope you explore on your own:

• Working: What We Do All Day - This Netflix docuseries explores the meaning of work for modern Americans in a time of rapid change.
• Understanding Decent Work and Meaningful Work - SSRN publication by David Blustein, Evgenia I. Lysova, and Ryan D. Duffy.
• The Psychology of Working: A New Perspective for Career Development, Counseling, and Public Policy - published book by David Blustein.

This episode features Michael Steger, a prominent expert in the field of meaning and purpose in life who has spent over two decades researching, defining, and redefining the dimensions of meaning in life and its application to meaningful work. His work has reshaped our understanding of how individuals find purpose, experience meaning, and navigate the complex interplay between personal and professional fulfillment. 

Over the years, Michael's research and expertise have played a pivotal role in reshaping the field of meaning as well as the roles that leaders can play in cultivating an ethical relationship to meaningful work. 

Their conversation also explores the role of suffering in the pursuit of meaningful work and its connection to historical and societal beliefs about the value of work. Michael reflects on how suffering in certain high-stress, meaningful professions is perceived as a necessary sacrifice, contrasting it with roles perceived as devoid of inherent meaning but well-compensated.

Overall, this episode offers a fascinating insight into the intricate web of meaning in life and work, providing valuable guidance for leaders striving to create purposeful and fulfilling experiences in the modern world.

This episode features Zeynep Ton, a professor of the practice in the operations management group at MIT Sloan School of Management and President of Good Jobs Institute.

Andrew and Zeynep discuss the financial, competitive, and moral case for implementing 'a good job strategy' in organizations. By prioritizing employees and designing their work for high productivity and contribution, organizations can create a virtuous cycle of low turnover and high customer satisfaction. Overall, Zeynep provides a roadmap for companies looking to implement a good job strategy and highlights the transformative impact it can have.

Join Andrew Soren and Zeynep Ton as they explore the profound impact of meaningful work and the path to a brighter, more equitable future for workers.

Lastly, be sure to check out Zeynep's new book, The Case for Good Jobs, which explores the concept of meaningful work and the stark contrast between good jobs and bad jobs.

This episode features Donna Gaffney, psychotherapist, advanced practice psychiatric mental health nurse, educator, and author.

Donna's incredible new book, Courageous Wellbeing for Nurses: Strategies for Renewal, was born from her extensive career working with healthcare professionals in the aftermath of trauma, especially nurses as they have tried to make their way through and beyond the pandemic. Using stories from the field, Donna showcases practical strategies that nurses use bolster elements of their wellbeing critical for resilience and adaptability.

Andrew and Donna discuss the power of storytelling, how it shapes our understanding of meaningful work, and reveals the double-edged nature of meaningful work. While many nurses find great fulfillment in supporting their patients during their most vulnerable moments, their passion for the work can also erode boundaries and lead to them empathic distress and burnout. 

Join us as we delve into into the world of healthcare, the power of stories, the practice of well-being, and the enabling conditions that foster resilience in the face of adversity.

Throughout this series, listeners can look forward to engaging conversations with cutting-edge experts from various fields who share evidence-based practices and real-life examples of navigating the challenges of meaningful work.

As mentioned in this episode, here is a link to Andrew and Carol Ryff's recent publication, Meaningful Work, Well-Being, and Health: Enacting a Eudaimonic Vision

Subscribe now and join us for this exciting journey to make meaningful work matter.